Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #70 – February 02, 2009, 11:12:22 pm Quote from: fabio – on February 02, 2009, 01:58:40 pmFor business reason, we can ****ume 1 m^3 of fluid enters-1 m^3 of fluid exits.Fabio, great idea! For some reason I never thought of that. The immediate travel can be justified easily then...Quote from: fabio – on February 02, 2009, 01:58:40 pmCode: [Select]waytipe=pipegoods=oilIf my past experience with prissi is any indication, it would be made somewhat differently... adding a goods reference to ways would require another child node in code and pak format, which he wouldn't like adding to all ways just for the sake of pipes. Or maybe not. But that is probably just a technical detail.Quote from: DirrrtyDirk – on February 02, 2009, 04:56:19 pmI agree that pipelines would probably be both useful and realistic to have. (...) fun in simutrans is ... having your vehicles (...) games are all about fun and enjoyment. And just because something is useful in real life (and might also be useful in game), it doesn't mean that it's really good for the (fun of the) game. (...) transport and logistics - not a mayor's office, not a production industry, no civil servicesThese snippets match my opinion quite closely. If pipes/conveyors are added, they should not interfere with the main course of game, which is focused on building networks of the "vehicular" kind. I mean, they should not render other modes of transport useless, except in some niches.Actually I think Timothy is right in that conveyor belts are better as station buildings. Easier than adding a seldom used exotic feature...Quote from: isidoro – on February 02, 2009, 10:37:07 pmThe pipe cannot be crossed by other way. They would occupy an underground level and that could prevent some players from abusing them.Hm, what kind of abuse do you mean? Blocking other players? That can already be done with cheap railway, and solution is going 3d - bridges and tunnels. If pipes were really, really expensive overground structures requiring crossing by bridges, I could imagine that building them would be a huge commitment, since that would disrupt to some extent all other ways and pipes... Although from top of my head I can think of a few setups - station on a bridge over the pipe, for example. Funny how this "no crossing" strategy would also mean that crossing one's own pipes requires building a dummy station. It feels like an element of gameplay mechanic that might be worth keeping to increase the challenge Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #71 – February 02, 2009, 11:47:19 pm In reality, pipelines only render other modes of transport useless in fairly specialist conditions; if pipelines were realistically balanced in Simutrans, therefore, the same would apply there. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #72 – February 03, 2009, 12:43:45 am Say, pipelines would not be fun once we can't manage vehicles. That is true.Pipelines would be a very bad addition if such feature caused a considerable impact in gameplay if pipelines were used in any (or almost all) factory chain (s) so that you could substitute any vehicle just for sake of fun like "that's new, cool! Let me see how it works"... Final result: frustration for "boredom-ness".First off, pipelines are not applicable in all freight categories. We have 7 freight categories; only in category 3 (Oil/petrol) and water that pipelines make sense to be used. Pipelines will not transport Boxed goods, Bulk goods, fluid foods (milk? ) and so on.Then, how is the impact of pipelines?I dare to say that pipelines wouldn't cause big impacts if implemented with wisdom. How so? Pipelines should be added not as an alternative (say, you could substitute a train with a pipeline in any situation) but as an addition when it's reasonable to be used.Today, a coal power plant just receives coal to produce energy. Coal is transported by train or by other vehicle. With pipelines, coal power plant would receive coal by a vehicle and water by pipeline. Coal will continue to be transported by a vehicle. But now coal power plant has got something different and new.How to manage a pipeline? Pipelines have switches. Say, if a coal power plant has received too much water, I could switch pipeline off, as I would do with a vehicle upon sending it to a depot for a while.If a factory (that consumes water) is demanding too much water, I'll have to remove the pipeline of small gauge/diameter (costs $$$) and I'll have to build a new pipeline of larger diameter (costs more $$$).As I have said: pipelines are mean of transport too, it's logistic too. I don't see any problem if a factory to work needed water or any fluid transported by pipeline in Simutrans. Even if required for a factory to work. Quote Selected Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 12:48:58 am by IgorTekton
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #73 – February 03, 2009, 05:14:14 am Quote from: VS – on February 02, 2009, 11:12:22 pmFabio, great idea! [quantity in, quantity out] For some reason I never thought of that. The immediate travel can be justified easily then...I would not advocate for instant transportation. There has to be a delay. In the Russian gas crisis, the gas took some hours to reach destination when it finally was pumped.Quote from: VS – on February 02, 2009, 11:12:22 pmHm, what kind of abuse do you mean? Blocking other players? I meant that if pipes are underground features that cannot be crossed by any other way, they would be a strong physical frontier in their underground level. Players could not use them too much ("abuse" perhaps is not the word) since they would effectively block other underground ways. That would be specially a challenge in cities with a populated underground.Quote from: IgorTekton – on February 03, 2009, 12:43:45 amPipelines have switches. Say, if a coal power plant has received too much water, I could switch pipeline off, as I would do with a vehicle upon sending it to a depot for a while.If a factory (that consumes water) is demanding too much water, I'll have to remove the pipeline of small gauge/diameter (costs $$$) and I'll have to build a new pipeline of larger diameter (costs more $$$).The first statement in currently addressed by Simutrans with factories asking for goods when they need them. Pipelines shouldn't behave differently here, imho. If a factory doesn't require more water, it will simply ask for no more to water producing factories.Regarding the second one, I think the key is speed of transportation. The small diameter pipe will transport the water as well, but it would take much longer for the same amount to arrive.Let's say: factory A requires 28 m3 of water from factory B. With good pipe, it takes 1 day1 to arrive; with a bad one, 4 days.It would work this way: when B produces the water, a route to A is found and reserved. No vehicle is needed in reality, but we can imagine one. That imaginary vehicle will travel with the water. It will p**** good pipes and go fast there and bad ones and get slowed. Eventually, the water will arrive. That imaginary vehicle would not be painted in any way, of course. It is only a way to program it.Offtopic: this reminds me about something I heard about of another pipe-like transportation: information. Like in the Internet. What is the broadest-band network available at the moment? 50 Mbps, 100 Mbps in Japan? Not at all, a truck full of CDs. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #74 – February 03, 2009, 08:24:37 am Quote from: DirrrtyDirk – on February 02, 2009, 06:54:57 pmDude, is it so hard for you to accept that I have the right to express my personal opinion here - not a decision or ruling! (for that is neither in my powers nor my intention) - on this matter just like anybody else? And that I do so by explaining my thoughts on this issue in detail, so that people can debate the these things further, rather than only cry out "in favor" or "against" in (meaningless) one-line postings, like you do... well, I don't think I really have to defend myself for that. If you can't come up with more than that, don't blame me just because I can for "my side", ok?Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy… Watch out guys! Give him a gun or a rope! If he believes your breath is not worth it, you’ll be gunned down or hanged! He wants to be the first who crosses the bridge! Here we are, mate! Help yourself!Is not my opinion or my solutions we are talking about. It’s Banksie_82’s! I am an ordinary guy, student in Uni. I am not the best, so an average guy, one more time. The sad thing is nobody asked Banksie how his idea could come to life, in the first place (of course in this game ) Let him talk! I entirely embrace his ideas. IMHO a collaboration between him (hydraulic engineer) and IgorTekton (architect) could lead to an excellent result. On the other hand who doesn’t want to use pipelines, doesn’t have to. Simple, cool solution! Who thought about it? I also like Banksie’s idea because it’s trying to make this game more realistic and I believe many guys’ (it doesn’t really matter whether they would like to face it or not) dream is to make it a reality one day. BTW, you are not the only one who is opposing Banksie_82’s idea. Why are you taking it so personally? Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #75 – February 03, 2009, 10:29:22 am Quote from: Timothy – on February 02, 2009, 08:21:43 amI can't remember why it was denied before however, but the proposal definitely has my support, would be extremely useful in some situations for transporting oil long distances.I wanted to have the flow of fluids to be different from the electricity in power lines, but couldn't really get it working. After a while I lost motivation to complete the code; it didn't seem that exciting.Another problem that hampered the introduction of pipelines at the time was that I wanted them to be underground, but Simutrans had no underground mode yet.Still, water (also oil and gas) pipelines were one of the ideas that I wanted to add, and I think there once was a complete set of graphics for the pipelines - not very elaborate images, but well, they did the job while coding and testing.When I brought up the idea again a while ago (I think it was in the german forum), I got a few opposing responses and didn't pursue the topic further.Many words. Just briefly: I don't think they were denied while I was in charge, I just couldn't get them to work as I wanted, and I did not finish the code. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #76 – February 03, 2009, 11:48:53 am Ok, maybe I went a little too far with that. Was a bad day yesterday and I'm coming down with the flu as it seems. So I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. But although what I said was probably phrased too rudely, the idea behind it still kinda stands.But first:Quote from: emaxectranspoorte – on February 03, 2009, 08:24:37 amOh boy, oh boy, oh boy… Watch out guys! Give him a gun or a rope! If he believes your breath is not worth it, you’ll be gunned down or hanged! He wants to be the first who crosses the bridge! Here we are, mate! Help yourself!Wow... getting me a rope or a gun? Ooookaaayy. That's a cheap shot if you ask me...Quote from: emaxectranspoorte – on February 03, 2009, 08:24:37 amIs not my opinion or my solutions we are talking about. It’s Banksie_82’s!Exactly. Unfortunately you didn't tell us any opinion or solution of your own. You told us on which side you are - but not why. So if you think it is such a good thing to have, why don't you tell us what exactly makes it good idea in your mind - just as I (and others) have done?Quote from: emaxectranspoorte – on February 03, 2009, 08:24:37 amI am an ordinary guy, student in Uni. I am not the best, so an average guy, one more time. The sad thing is nobody asked Banksie how his idea could come to life, in the first place (of course in this game ) Let him talk! I entirely embrace his ideas. IMHO a collaboration between him (hydraulic engineer) and IgorTekton (architect) could lead to an excellent result. On the other hand who doesn’t want to use pipelines, doesn’t have to. Simple, cool solution! Who thought about it? I also like Banksie’s idea because it’s trying to make this game more realistic and I believe many guys’ (it doesn’t really matter whether they would like to face it or not) dream is to make it a reality one day. Yes, it is Banksie’s idea (although it is not really new, so originally it actually wasn't). But nobody is keeping him from participating in this. It's an open discussion - we don't have to ask him specifically - he can always drop in his ideas - just like everybody else. We're only exchanging points of view - nobody's has made a decision yet. And you shouldn't drop remarks that hint at that. (That's what actually made me angry in the first place. It is not our position to rule on this and it is not yours to judge if that decision has been made yet.)There are people who like the idea and people who don't. Both sides bring up points for everyone to consider, so that in the end we can come to a solution. And that process has just begun.Quote from: emaxectranspoorte – on February 03, 2009, 08:24:37 amBTW, you are not the only one who is opposing Banksie_82’s idea. Why are you taking it so personally? You are right. As I said above, I probably overreacted. But between your last two postings I was the only one (VS only asked some technical questions - neutrally if you ask me) to speak up against it - so I made that ****umption. If that was wrong I apologize.EDIT:Another thing that made me think I was the target:Quote from: emaxectranspoorte – on February 02, 2009, 06:02:54 pmAs far as I can see Banksie_82's dream will only be a "pipe dream", only because doesn't fit in the fun of this game.Maybe because I used "fun" as one the major points in the posting right before yours?Oh and by the way: very creative of you to steal my signatures and rephrase them to attack me. Together with the fact that you said it would be best if I just killed myself?... or wanting to kill others? And all this "somebody's breath being worth it" after I have told you that both sides have the right to bring up their points, problems and concerns so that we can reach a conclusion in the end, instead of you judging where things are going, right at the beginning. I just critized you (in an unnecessarily unfriendly way, yes) for not really participating in that part at all, instead dropping lines that held virtually no information on the issue at all (for whatever side!). To turn that into me trying to oppress your (or anybody else's!) ideas... that requires some skill. Have you considered going into politics as a career? That skill should be highly useful there. Quote Selected Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:21:26 pm by DirrrtyDirk
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #77 – February 03, 2009, 03:37:43 pm I'm wondering, and maybe I'm going either too fast or too slow, but if pipelines are used, thinking in layers (like roads are on top of soil, and signals on top of tracks), where are the pipelines? For example, if I use the removal tool, will the pipeline be removed before of after roads, or signals? Also, I'm afraid there may be too many layers. If Simutrans is supposed to be a simple simulation, easy to play and discover, then how can pipelines fit in? This last bit doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinion though. What I do think is that pipelines can be a nice addition, but only if it can blend in well with everything else that's represented in Simutrans, but surely doesn't replace current ways of transportation, especially because pipelines seem a little static to me. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #78 – February 03, 2009, 08:44:36 pm As I see them, pipes wouldn't merge with other ways or signals. They will occupy one cell for themselves, just like power lines, but without crossings.Electrification could be optional, used only if we want that liquid packets can go uphill (simulating pumps). Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #79 – February 03, 2009, 08:51:15 pm i've started looking into this a little bit today. Would you cl**** water as power? Also would you code it as to be a tunnel? Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #80 – February 03, 2009, 09:46:19 pm Wow, I’m quite humbled by the response this is getting.I’ll just expand on my thoughts briefly and throw it back to open discussion.Pipes can be above or below ground in real life, but just like train tracks, they are cheaper if they are above. However in urban areas we usually put them under ground because they get in the way and it’s easier to put them underground than all the roads.Someone mentioned that the flow in pipes can be ****umed to be instant, and in real life this is in fact the case (at least with liquids, not so much g****es) because you can turn on and off the tap at the downstream outlet, 1m^3 in – 1m^3 out. Just think of when you turn your tap on in the kitchen sink, you don’t need to wait for the water to arrive from the dam, it’s already there. Of course in the first instance you need to fill the pipes, but in the long term this is negligible. I had in mind that various pipe sizes and pump size/number combinations would influence the maximum flow capacity through the pipes. For example, in the long term running of the pipe, if the capacity is greater than the supply from the producing factory or demand from the consuming factory there won’t be a bottle neck. If the capacity is less than both factories, then it only supplies what it is capable of.Also, I had in mind that they would be used for reasonable distances but would only be cost effective if there was a huge flow rate. Where normally you would need a two way train line, running at capacity with just the one commodity, you could then embark on the construction of a pipe line.I like the idea of water being used in the same way (for some factories, not all) as electricity is, i.e. it simply increases production rather than being required for production. In this instance I think you should need plenty of water that would warrant a pipe line. How often do you see a “water train” in real life dropping off its load at a power station or farm? However I would still like to see a receiving storage at these factories like any other commodity. To start with, this could be the only thing to be transported in a pipe line, rather than oil, just to see how it goes and how well it is received. Also, it would be nice to have branch connections coming in and out of the main line but I understand this may be quite hard to code. Although I could be wrong, I know very little about coding.Fluid flow through pipes is quite a complex science with a lot of variables that need to be considered, but I won’t go into them here. My point is, the calculation of capacity can be made to follow some fairly simple rules for the purposes of game play. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #81 – February 03, 2009, 10:43:15 pm Some very interesting ideas! A fair bit of coding and testing would be needed to get it to work, but, if there's anyone willing to do said coding and testing, it'd be an interesting addition to the game :-) Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #82 – February 04, 2009, 01:42:45 am @Banksie_82: I think that treating water or other suitable to be transported goods as electricity is treated, is not good. Pipes should be an alternative to normal transportation. And also I don't agree with the model in which factories supply anonymous water to pipes and other factories get that water from them.Goods produced in Simutrans have destinations. Therefore, if a factory puts some water in the pipe that water has an owner and destination and cannot be taken by any factory (again this reminds me of the gas crisis, where packets of gas were supposed to disappear in transit ).So, in my view of pipes, pipes are not filled with water or oil. There is an empty pipe joining Barcelona with Sebastopol. Sebastopol asks for water. Barcelona puts the water in the pipe. Sebastopol will receive it. It certainly would not be an instant transfer. All the process involved can be modeled in the program by a packet virtually traveling through the pipe. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #83 – February 04, 2009, 09:04:32 am Quote from: Stubbsy – on February 03, 2009, 08:51:15 pmi've started looking into this a little bit today. Would you cl**** water as power? Also would you code it as to be a tunnel?My plan was to have pipes as a object cl**** of their own. They were also planned to have distinct code, different from both powerlines or any ways like tunnels.Electric power was meant to be instant, fluids need some time to flow through the pipeline, and pressure will differ depending on the pipe length, also number of forks in the pipeline.At least that was my plan, and as said previously I had troubles to code the fluid dynamics properly for pipelines. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #84 – February 04, 2009, 09:16:56 am Thinking about this in Simutrans-y terms...All factories in Simutrans have a certain production rate, so an oil well produces oil at a certain rate. A pipeline has a certain innate capacity, since it's essentially a very long and thin storage tank. Until that pipeline has been filled, transfer of material from one end to the other cannot take place, but after it has been filled, transfer is virtually "instant", since one unit in displaces another unit from the other end.Thus you could give each section of pipeline a storage capacity, say, 1 unit of liquid. A producing factory produces material at its maximum rate, and this then goes into filling up the pipeline's storage capacity. Once one section fills, the next one does and so on. If there are branches in the pipe then all the branches must fill simultaneously, and at each branch the fill rate will halve, since liquid must flow from one pipe into two.If a factory has more than one pipeline removing material from it, then its production capacity is split between the pipelines, and if there's also a station to take material by train, then again the production is split between the three (in the same way as production is split currently if more than one player has a station connected to the same factory).It would likely be a good idea to implement some ability to prioritize production for the various different forms of transport too.Simiilarly, a factory which consumes the liquid (e.g. an oil power plant) has a set consumption rate, and would thus remove liquid from the pipeline at a constant rate. As it removes a unit from the pipeline that section of pipeline then becomes "empty", and can accept the next unit from the section of pipeline before it. There would be some factor determining how quickly this occurs, which would be a function of pipe diameter and material viscosity. Net result: a big pipe will transfer material more quickly than a small one.This system means that you can have multiple "sources" and "sinks" in a pipeline network, and that the network itself has an innate storage capacity (which is realistic). Players would need to consider balancing the production and consumption in a pipeline network, or risk undersupply, just as they do with a rail or truck network.You could have several different sizes of pumping station, at increasing cost, which would boost the flow rate through the pipe (and these could be powered to increase efficiency like factories). The basic pumping stations attached to factories to take away the material would have a certain base pumping capacity, which could be upgraded. As previously stated, a certain bore of pipe would have a set maximum capacity/hour for a certain viscosity of liquid, and the largest bore pipe wouldn't be completely fill-able by only one pumping station/factory, to encourage clustering of producers.Pipelines IMO should take up a full tile, be buildable underground or over ground, be bridge-able (but only for 1-4 tiles or so, so they can go over roads etc, but not cross long stretches of water) - here tanker ships would be used.Pumping stations would have to be built at each source location, which would cost more for higher capacity, additionally "receiving stations" would have to be built at the consumer, again with a cost based on capacity approach. All of this could be timelined too, so that better pumping technology and pipe becomes available over time.That's just the way I'd do it though Am kind of tempted to write a simulation to see if this would work. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #85 – February 04, 2009, 09:22:56 am Timothy's ideas on how to integrate pipes into Simutrans are very interesting indeed - this seems like a sensible approach. I am not sure about prohibiting long underwater pipelines, though: in reality, there are long under-sea pipelines, for example, in the North Sea, transporting oil and gas to the mainland. They are, of course, very expensive to build, but are more efficient in the long-term than boat transport. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #86 – February 04, 2009, 12:58:03 pm @Timothy: in your view of pipes, when under production happens, there would be "bubbles", let's say it. The problem I see with your approach is twofold:The dynamics of these bubbles: you suppose there is "upstream" (to producing factories) and "downstream" (to consumers). But that imposes unrealistic one-way pipes. Some sections will be bidirectional. In that case, where should the bubbles go?The problem of ownership: what factory is supposed to take the oil/water? Any? Who is to be paid and charged for transportation?And a final: the behavior in slopes? Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #87 – February 04, 2009, 01:21:43 pm Quote from: isidoro – on February 04, 2009, 12:58:03 pmThe problem of ownership: what factory is supposed to take the oil/water? Any? Who is to be paid and charged for transportation?The needed inputs will be specified in the factory dat files. I don't think we need to answer this now and for all factories. It's good if we make it configurable for each factory.Many factories will need water, some will need gas and/or oil. maybe there will be more fluids and gases, like hydrogenium, or some sorts of chemicals.As usual the pipe owner will be payed for the quantity and distance transported. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #88 – February 04, 2009, 01:48:52 pm I would go with KISS for the parts of design interacting with user. If there is no reliable way to know which direction is used, how do I decide where to build pumping stations? -> slopes don't matter or pumping stations are not needed.Hajo: I can imagine pipes used commonly for water, crude oil and gas (?). So far no other goods present in any of paksets for Simutrans are suitable for such transport or transported so. Milk or beer? Hah Maybe gasoline/petrol. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #89 – February 04, 2009, 02:24:37 pm Quote from: VS – on February 04, 2009, 01:48:52 pmHajo: I can imagine pipes used commonly for water, crude oil and gas (?). So far no other goods present in any of paksets for Simutrans are suitable for such transport or transported so. Milk or beer? Hah Maybe gasoline/petrol.Let's try to make a list- Water- Natural gas- Gasoline/petrol/oil- Hydrogene (particularly for future oriented paks)- ChemicalsAnd more distant ideas:- Long distance heating/district heating/steam- SewagePipelines could extend Simutrans a bit more into the Simcity-ish grounds. This is more brainstorming now, though. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #90 – February 04, 2009, 02:43:20 pm Quote from: Hajo – on February 04, 2009, 02:24:37 pmPipelines could extend Simutrans a bit more into the Simcity-ish grounds. Simutrans is not so far from Sim City. Well, it works on an other way. But with the Editor you can make many things what you can do at Sim City.I think, if Simutrans will played from more Sim City players is this not bad. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #91 – February 04, 2009, 06:28:01 pm A little off-topic, but imho SimCity died when Societies came out. SC4 Deluxe FTW, after Simutrans then Sim City 4 had a nice game play though, if Simutrans can ever reach that level of game play, it would be perfect.Can pipelines have a separate underground view like Sim City has? (All other tracks hidden?) And if so, would that be in the best interest of Simutrans (consistency)? I think that would be a convenient way to lay pipes down... Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #92 – February 04, 2009, 06:31:51 pm Quote from: Hajo – on February 04, 2009, 02:24:37 pmAnd more distant ideas:- Long distance heating/district heating/steam- SewageAlso garbage is transferred using some pipe-like structures in some places (both low pressure and conveyor belts are used) to a joint place where it's easier to pick up than building by building. I think that there's even some rather large city in south-western Europe which has a city-wide garbage collector (I don't remember which it is though). And here in Finland such system is to be used on one area once it gets built in the first place.And, also airport luggage goes in a form of pipes btw... :-) Such system could be used to increase the airports capacity somehow. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #93 – February 04, 2009, 07:05:57 pm I don't know in other countries, but we usually don't pay transportation cost as gas fee or water fee. We will pay basic fee and pay for gas or water itself.We don't pay money for the distance of pipelines. It's not a transport game, I'm afraid. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #94 – February 04, 2009, 09:04:04 pm Quote from: Hajo – on February 04, 2009, 01:21:43 pmThe needed inputs will be specified in the factory dat files. I don't think we need to answer this now and for all factories. It's good if we make it configurable for each factory. [...]Perhaps I wasn't able to explain it well. I didn't mean that. I meant that if the model is a pipe full of liquid and factories putting liquid in and out the pipes, that is not compatible with factories connections in present simutrans. Factory A has a contract with Factory B. Factory A produces water, Factory B consumes it. But if Factory A just push water to a pipe shared by many factories, how can factory B know if that water in the pipe is for it or not?My model is when some water from A is to be delivered to B, the whole pipe segment is reserved and cannot be used for other possible connections until the transfer is completed.@VS: about SimCity: I think the key is the degree of detail and the focus. SimCity is focussed on city management, transportation is only a part. Simutrans foucusses on transportation. Some factors may affect the quantities to be transported, but it is not the focus. For instance, I would find very useful that for a certain city population to be mantained some water/food ought to be delivered to the city hall, for instance. That is not management of the city, that is only a transport requirement.@ij: we can see pipes from an abstract point of view. It is a means of transportation but without vehicles.@z9999: I don't agree fully. In consumers bills it is not a separate item, but surely we pay for it. It is hidden under the fee. Everyone pays the same, but to be fair a distant town costumer should pay more. When industries are involved, there may be an agreement between producer and consumer. The cost will include everything: goods and transportation and I guess may depend on distance. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #95 – February 04, 2009, 09:19:45 pm I did not say anything about simcity...If pipes must make money, they must generate profit in some way. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #96 – February 04, 2009, 09:43:36 pm We are transport company, the owner of goods are not us.We earn by transporting customer's goods, we never sell goods. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #97 – February 04, 2009, 09:57:33 pm z9999 has expressed my concerns; although I have to admid that the electricity break this concept already (but then electricity cannot be moved by any vehicle). Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #98 – February 04, 2009, 11:45:18 pm Actually, I had said pretty much the same (before the "incident").Slowly this really appears to become a discussion not only about pipelines but where simutrans as a whole is going... Should it stay "just" a transportation game or should it move on to be something more like simcity (with the player having to provide all kinds of civil services as well). Quote Selected Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:49:57 pm by DirrrtyDirk
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #99 – February 05, 2009, 02:01:07 pm Quote from: isidoro link=topic=1413.msg14335#msg14335 ... that is not compatible with factories connections in present simutrans. Factory A has a contract with Factory B. Factory A produces water, Factory B consumes it. But if Factory A just push water to a pipe shared by many factories, how can factory B know if that water in the pipe is for it or not?I think this scheme will not work with pipelines anymore. There are "sources" of water/oil/gas, and "drains". The pipelines distribute. In between sources and drains there might be contracts, but the pipeline owner does not know (or need to know).[Edit] I mean, "drains" just pay "sources" for the amount drained, but the pipeline owner does not need to know these transactions, he needs only take care that the pipeline network can suit the needs.[/Edit]Income for pipelines is the "basic fee" that z9999 mentioned. The pipleline owner gets some money for just providing the pipe. I think it'd not be too far off to have this "basic fee" depend on length of the pipe.Yes, this is something that expands Simutrans. It's different, and needs new rules. But I don't think it will break Simutrans.Pipelines are still transportation, just different from vehicles. More like powerlines. (Actually the current powerlines were build on my basic pipeline code, which I could not finish.)Edit 2:Quote from: DirrrtyDirk – on February 04, 2009, 11:45:18 pmSlowly this really appears to become a discussion not only about pipelines but where simutrans as a whole is going... Should it stay "just" a transportation game or should it move on to be something more like simcity (with the player having to provide all kinds of civil services as well).I don't want a full SimCity simulation based on Simutrans. But I'd like a bit more of the infrastructure parts that SimCity had.Fire statiosn, hospitals and police, I don't want in Simutrans. These are definitely not transportation. Pipelines have something like roads, or like powerlines, and therefore were included in my plan. Quote Selected Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 02:13:43 pm by Hajo
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #100 – February 05, 2009, 02:34:02 pm I agree with Hajo that pipelines as such should present little to no danger of breaking simutrans at all (especially as they are, by their very nature, limited to a couple of specific goods only).But I am wondering if they are really worth the effort necessary to implement them, when they return so little "fun" to the gameplay as I fear they do (just my purely personal view and taste of the matter, as I have described earlier). I (still) tend to say "no" on that. But I'm only here to voice my opinions, thoughts and potential problems - not to force any decision in my favor (even I could do that - which is luckily not the case), and certainly not to stop people from voicing (differing) opinions of their own. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #101 – February 05, 2009, 08:56:22 pm Quote from: VS – on February 04, 2009, 09:19:45 pmI did not say anything about simcity...Sorry. My fault.Quote from: Hajo – on February 05, 2009, 02:01:07 pmI think this scheme will not work with pipelines anymore. There are "sources" of water/oil/gas, and "drains". The pipelines distribute. In between sources and drains there might be contracts, but the pipeline owner does not know (or need to know).That would certainly be different. If a pipe is shared by several sources and drains and one factory takes some water, which of the sources would replace that water in the pipe? How much time will be required for the chosen factory to replace "that bubble"? Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #102 – February 06, 2009, 01:33:06 pm Quote from: DirrrtyDirk – on February 05, 2009, 02:34:02 pmBut I am wondering if they are really worth the effort necessary to implement them, when they return so little "fun" to the gameplay as I fear they doThey might - while I was working on them, everything else seemed more important, and that was also a reason why the code never really was finished.It was a curiosity item mostly. I don't think they are important, but they could be a nice addition. So if someone feels interested, and wants to try, I'd say feel free to do it. I'm sure it's a nice addition, but it's not a top priority. Should be nice work for someone who is interested in the topic anyways, and enjoys the idea of working pipelines.Sidenote: My original implementation would have made the player owner of the sources, and payment would have been for the pipeline _and_ the delivered goods, very unlike to the other factories and transport in Simutrans.I even had the idea of let the player prospect for water, gas and oil reserves. Only some spots on the map would yield such resources. But maybe this is really too far flung for Simutrans. Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #103 – February 09, 2009, 10:50:05 am Where is download? I would like to play with pipes while I think they could have some problems:1. you can build the first site - for exaple to connecting for example oilrigs with refineries2. but after if you would need to connect else industries, you would have problem with crossings of both sites Quote Selected
Re: way type - Pipe lines Reply #104 – February 09, 2009, 01:05:33 pm I don't think we have a working version yet? So far the discussion was about the pros and cons of pipelines, and a few ideas how they could be implemented. A release with pipelines included will need some time, I think. Quote Selected
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