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Simutrans-Extended development / Re: Problem with growing Towns
eventually. Good luck.
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Messages - colonyan
eventually. Good luck.
2
Randomness Lounge / Re: Make SImutrasn Simcity
Hi.
Which aspect of ST did you find attractive?
Transportation, Growing cities, large map or industries?
_ _ _
Lin city is more like demand and supply game.
Most of game play is for building and puzzling of supply buildings.
Resembles more like Caesar series.
It has aspect of increasing population but scale is small and
infrastructure is much more complex.
_ _ _
On the other hand, Sim City (as always has been and especially in simcity4),
is about increasing population and region wide development design.
You were able to, given option to give different role on each city.
(I was a avid SC4 player too)
There is a reason why Simutrans attracts person like me.
In SC4, whole region was segmented and was be able to be played only one city at once.
On contrary, thanks to its simplicity, in ST, it has one whole map which every things
goes one at the same time.
On top of that, as you could imagine, in SC4 too, region wide transportation
network design was required(as in ST) to host a large population successfully.
On the other hand, there is a good reason why I play only ST now.
I cared less about building police station, school, hospital and such (after
a while, even that becomes a repeating boredom.) and now, ST replaced SC4 completely.
_ _ _
I would say keep the ST basic untouched but add or modify mechanism.
What could be changed (or given the chance the possibilities to be explored)is
how cities, industries and population behaves.
(transportation is most exciting aspect among other infrastructures)
(and infrastructure is for growth and maintenance of population)
-Different city growth speed depending on map's location.
(imagine a 9 key pad like divided zone like on your keyboard,
for example, cities on zone 1~5 grows on X1.5 and 6~9 grows X0.5 speed)
(since current game makes all cities size all resembling with time)
-Industries(I need more brainstorming)
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: Mega-City
As now we have ability as a player company to buy city buildings, may be we could build
small city building to expand the city limit? It could be simple terrain or 0 level residential
or what ever. Maybe better some kind of marker thing to expand city limit. There could be
some cost attached to it.
(also, being able to turn off on city growth is bit bizarre. better be controlled by public
player or randomly designate some cities grow slower than other(for few decades with
date which could be specified). although, this is rather trivial for now.)
4
Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: Control over freight movement
Other than that hub should do.
It will be still hard to have control when same cargo type transports many
different type of products.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Control over freight movement
disturbing stable supply to factories.
However, this can be avoided by making extra station at raw provider
and factory. Using one as supply only and one as depart only(at factory station). On raw provider side, one for factory C and one for
factory D.
This is unintuitive to have to build two station.
(putting aside real world example but as game)
Maybe there could be a order at scheduling to make
convoy pickup only and deliver only at specific station.
If we could specify which cargo, even better.
(especially at later game stage)
Would enough people find this useful?
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Extension Requests / Re: Detail financial dialogue
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Extension Requests / Re: Detail financial dialogue
I thought there were no expenditure named overhead now.
If it didn't exist, it could be applied, and finally make HQ building give more meaning
by make them overhead, maintenance modifier(to lower).
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Extension Requests / Re: climatic and cultural regions
I meant start discussion with 256 square tile region.
One seems most simple.
My capacity does not allow me to program and learn it to certain extent,
I merely adds few words on this topic hoping it leads somewhere.
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Extension Requests / Re: climatic and cultural regions
I personally like this one.
Different city building sets depending on region. How wonderful.
To start with how about define default size of region like
256*256. Place them on the map one by one.
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Incorporated Patches and Solved Bug Reports / Re: List of vehicles that stop at a station
make line for every schedule as you can imagine. Although it is little a fuss but...
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: Fixed fare for urban transport
Ah, now I see the idea. It sounds more convincing.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: More interaction with power lines
Sorry, I brain was running on low. I will be careful.
@Dwachs
Only the consumption.
****ume there is two towns in the map. Town a and b.
There is also one coal plant where town b is affected but plant is not yet supplied.
At this state, p****enger/mail(destination:other city building and special building) are generated only
50% of potential maximum for example(in both town a and b).
P****enger/mail generation rate will restored when coal plant is supplied.
If plant is supplied 50%, generation rate will be 75%.
If plant is supplied 100%, generation rate will be 100%.
Data could store for one month for consumption rate and actual new generation rate
could take in effect the next month.
This came idea from where there's more freight being consumed, there's more
economic activity and people will move more.
Obviously, number can be changed. If pak designer/player is not interested one can
put it initial p****enger/mail generation rate untouched.
(in contrary p****enger/mail departure rate could affect freight consumption rate but
this is another story)
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: More interaction with power lines
travel demand will be generated for the first time. As more radius city gets into industry
building, city has more destination choice.
What I'm exploring here is the overall p****enger/mail generation rate including those who
are destinations are other city building and special building(tourist attraction).
If village a is in radius of coal power station and station is not supplied, city will generate
only say 50% of possible p****enger. Thus 1/2 the potential speed of growth from p****enger.
As power station gets supplied 100%, city generates at full rate the p****engers for maximum
potential growth. This is the simplest example.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: Fixed fare for urban transport
on network administrator's side. Plus by simplifying the fare system, administration expect
more people to ride it.
In Simutrans maintenance fee is fixed and p****engers are always max(as long as
there is connection to the destination).
I think this is not necessary "let's imitate real world" mechanism. It is too complicated for
Simutrans to make the proper sense of flat rate system.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Interaction between P****enger & Freight
Power line helps grow cities faster(indirectly by accelerating production rate).
Then how would game play if specific industries influenced the
p****enger/mail generation rate?
-end summary-
I'm playing around with power line and found it really interesting the fact that,
one chain, power, does influence other chains. Say, this power chain contribute to
faster growth of the cities affected by other chains.
(Maybe power station cities grow too well in the beginning of the game)
Of course, above situation must be designed by pak designer.
Supplier and processor doesn't work fast enough to meet 100% rate of consumer without
power supply.
Expanding this idea, how about if certain specific(not necessary always power) industries
affected the total number of p****engers/mail generated.
In the initial state, pax/mail will generated lesser, but with specific industry supply,
they will get generated at normal rate.
Mod note: please make your topic titles more descriptive showing what the topic is treating. Topics with vague titles are easier to be missed.
- Igor
Edit2: changed the title & added summary
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: Variable terra forming costs
Pak dependent climate pricing sounds good idea.
I suppose in tropic, it rains much often then ground is softer so new soil have to be brought in and hardened.
I mean roadbed. Thus that cost could be considered other than wood cutting cost.
On other hand, any wood could be sold so any cutting wood cost could mean plus minus zero in terms of money.
This case, should give tree some other mean or it will be pure eye candy. [on another topic]
So it would be nice being able to change the way construction cost alternated depending on climate zone. (height)
On the other hand, slope cost is still the same even on the water.
There's is also a bridge type which can across any distance on the water.
Under ground tunnel is currently tool for fun by ****uming tunnel cost more to maintain than above mentioned bridge type.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: Variable terra forming costs
Shouldn't have mentioned the tunnel.
This came from natural ****umption that work will cost more on
high ground hard to reach locations. (I'm not a general contractor
wanting to make spend more)
By minimizing the terraform, there will be more place for more
high power, low speed locomotion, trucks.
Not only that by leaving more lines curving, leaving place for locking
trains,(fast at making curves).
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Extension Requests / Re: No transfer at overcrowded stations.
There are always people active enough to search the alternative.
Maybe say X% of p****enger could use other route if one or more
of his original transfers was full?
This disregarding the inefficiency of the alternative.
Lets suppose they are desperate to get to their destination.
Although, I kind of can feel coders doesn't like this kind of irregular
approach.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: Fixed fare for urban transport
If different price rule apply for specific area, wouldn't this make game slower?
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Variable terra forming costs
How about if terraform costs more on high ground and on the water body?
If raise/low was 5000 on level 1, it could go up 5000 each level.
So at height 8, 40 000 for raise and lower.
This option will introduce advantage of tunnel more naturally.
On the water side, slope can be constructed on the water.
Player could just place slope on water and build on top of it.
I think this is game balance breaking. If this was left available,
appropriate price tag better placed. More expensive where more deeper.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: [List] Interaction of Cities, People and Goods
Thank you for reply gauthier and vilvoh.
I just want to have rough talk what could be fun. I'm no way bring in this to request section at least for
years to come or never if it does not conclude.
I must clarify again, I'm not saying that we should be able to build school or hospital for cities.
Just that we answer what customer wants but those requests from customer will be more
variable and different. And also, the characteristics of the cities.
@vilvoh, I agree with you if algorithm got introduced it better be simple. And I think there's no need
to change city rule from what I see. Its more about how they grow(in population count).
Also as you pointed out, some kind of primary and secondary resource playing part in the game
sounds interesting. And those resource act as fuel of growth. Like on/off switch.
___
Blue Prints
P/M vs Freight
As basic matter of transportation game, there will be p****enger/mail and freight group.
I think cities should be able to grow even if only p****enger/mail being served.
But my ideal is that it will be extremely slow. As of including some economic reality to simulation,
there got to be industry.
But this does not mean that weight of freight is very heavy.
Again, both must be served to see certain degree of change. So it will be not 40% + 20% + 20% =80%,
but one triggers one other.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: [List] Interaction of Cities, People and Goods
vehicles travel.
Thus, if each cities grow differently and ask for different cargoes, this
presents more variation in game play.
What it is now is this.
- Transportation simulation under circumstance where all cities grow
under same rule and any occurred growth is irreversible.
It is simple but to call it most adapted or not, it is too subjective.
At least, I find it "too simplistic".
That's why we need some simulation aspect on city behavior or economy.
In extreme we even don't need to simulated. We can invent certain rule
so it seems like it is simulated.
EDIT: Or at least whenever coder shows interest or more later ( as this
game has so much possibilities, decades) as I learn more about
coding AND learn ST code I might do it...
I post these things to not lose my motivation.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / [List] Interaction of Cities, People and Goods
Just of as reference and archive I'd like to list down the how cities behave in
other games which deal with cities transformation.
1. Primary resource type dominates growth. (population//primary resource)
2. Secondary resource type to control higher density, wealth growth.
3. Specific resource type required to growth to occur depending on climate
zone of the city where it is located.
4. Specific raw material required to city to grow.
5. Strong p****enger destination trend (commuter) depending on city.
6. Shrink when it has no interaction at all after certain time.
7. Larger cities consumes more sophisticated products.
Below is my interpretation in whats going on in real world.
I know its not always a solution to imitate the real world but just as info.
1. Material/manufacturing industries creates employments.
(all industry types, freight services )
2. Service/commercial sector emerges thanks to manufacturing industries.
(banking, retail, insurance, real estate, communication, publishing, corporates etc)
3. 1&2 supports middle cl**** and spawns tourists and business p****enger for
further service/commercial development(population growth (new industry))
All further growth depends on steady servicing and expansion of step 1.
That's why coal, iron ore, petroleum, grain etc are called strategic material.
(Very important resources)
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Extension Requests / Re: Where are my wages, say the people of Renden!
Unless you care not, if you observe and manage your company carefully, it is rare that you keep caring about money at certain point.
So interest shift toward management to servicing public (growth).
There are two kind of managements
1. One to balance your budget. Financial management. (this loses weight in later game stage)
2. One to coordinated routes and number of vehicles. (this is largely influenced by
industry cargo destination pattern and p****enger/mail destination choice and weight depending on spawning location)
2. is needed in order to keep cities grow always.
But this elements get weaker eventually since all city behave as same and
same pattern of industry spawn again and again. (same distance between
raw producer and middle/finale factories, almost always fixed resource
production/consumption)
The fact is that any game, it becomes sandbox after certain point
and some may lose appetite in replaying(keep playing same map,
especially once all destinations are covered).
Also, monotonic city growth behavior(all cities are clone, almost) also contributes to the reason where
at least me lose certain degree of appetite at certain point in any game.
I also observe player's company can build cities and have control over
stopping and allowing of each city's growth and even destroy and build
road wherever one wants, it is half public half private company.
I threw some discussion about this quite a few time in past but none
of them got any attention, maybe poor of my ideas but...
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Extension Requests / Re: Resource ideas.
1. Final product producer appear as it becomes such as Production>Consumption
2. Fixed number of raw producer appear on map per final producer
This means it is ideal so that there is no left over production capacity when
production capacity is divided by number of consumer I guess.
For example if one printing factory can supply 3 bookstore, better be 3000/600=5 (integer)
than 3000/550=5.45...
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Some final products behave as p****enger/mail
"Consumer: I want this shoe, that shoe and those shoes!"
Currently, final product such as car, medicines, furniture and books have designated final
consumer or you could choose its destination if it is cross connected.
Although it isn't described in game, those products could have its brand and can be of different types.
Such as for car, there is brand X and Y. I guess consumer have choice to buy what brand of car
for an example.
But instead of making new cargo type like car_brand_1 or car_brand_2, can't they be like mail
which they have destinations?
If there is two car ****embly plants and 2 car dealers in whole map, both car dealers will be the
destinations for both car ****embly plants.
This can bring logistic challenge from more early stage of game and even more complex later.
Thus asking for more extensive use of freight terminal/distribution station/stop.
Detail and problems
If possible, final products listed on station like p****enger and mail does.
Destinations
Town A car dealer : 180 cars
City B car dealer : 210 cars
for example.
The proportion varying time to time as in p****enger/mail does.
Thus requiring more transport capacity.
I believe game will be stay the same, it just that requirements will be tougher.
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Extension Requests / Re: Better loading schedule
This will help supply management.
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Extension Requests / Re: New consumption rate heuristic.
I will be at the defense of mad_genius here.
-micromanagement due to constant consumption increase
[]Instead of counting consumption triggered population by unit population, count
by variable larger number. For example, 1000. Change will occur only after designated number
population growth. Player will only have to worry at each X population growth of concerned cities.
-unstable flow of finished goods and raw material
[]Some times, you see that using 280t capacity freight train to supply one gasoline station where
its storage capacity is 100t is not very clever. Especially if refinery is far and you use only one consist.
Gasoline station will be empty before freight train arrives.
Player have given the tools to make supply smooth even with the over production capacity.
One is to use smaller and frequent service and one is to limit the raw material providing to
finishing factories by making vehicles wait at non functioning stations.
-
I'm quite against this, to base the production on even more formula makes it far harder to follow the supply chain through when laying track. ...
While it would be more realistic to have the factories produce a more varied output it would just make it too hard to build a solid transport network.
for line upgrade and station/stop expansion. We also have underground.
With knowing that there is a limit one how much a consumer can eat, you can plan for future
development.
Of course, there will be more problem arising as we consider this matter but I like the fact that
as city dweller increase, they ask more good for them.
At least, I want to see more discussion going on about this one.
EDIT1: Added phrases to consolidate my stance.
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Tutorials / Re: places and their goods
Especially useful when chain gets complex and numerous.
As suggested above, it would be even better if you put image along the name
of the facility. You could make name font size lot smaller to fit the image but
it will be too short to image to fit...
Hope this helps new players to come.
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Pak64 / Re: General pak64 feedback here
But this should never change during the game, if this is what you meant.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Cargo payment and buyer's reserve
I afraid this topic resemble too much with "cargo payment and distance"
I used another thread to distinguish.
As multiplayer game on horizon(from what I read) control over financial game aspect needs to
be more refined I guess.
If buyer has empty or less of needed item, they will pay more, if they are already filled(say 85%?)
they will pay you less.
As an example, if you sell a good to a buyer(any factory, consumer)where their buying items storage is empty,
you gain 10% sales bonus?
To balance that, you will get less payment if buyer has more storage at their hand.
Say for example, if a gasoline station is filled to 135/100 tons of gasoline, sales price will be half of original.
When you play with other humans, you need to expect how much to deliver ,,,, and timing and race and all.
This adds some income control, strategic aspect and competition among players.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Re: Cargo payment and distance
In one side of map there was a land oil field for book industry and there was a car industry on other end of the map.
I transported book's oil to oil refinery where plastics were produced to raise some quick fund.
Since distance war quite large 400~500 tiles? income was gushing.
Either way even in default setting, there is 33% cross connect setting. Thus, to prevent a situation which I wrote above
(stealing one chain's raw resource to get longer trip to earn higher payment), there need to be some kind of limit in distance
industry is willing to pay for the full price per unit load.
Or how about if we predefine spawn point/s(zone/s) for raw materials? And industries which require them concentrate around it?
Like raw material point <> Factory (some where in the middle, most better closer to city at commute range) <> Closest city
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Cargo payment and distance
I think this applies especially to freights but how about applying some kind of mark distance per
cargo type where it is payed to its fullest price to that point and payment decrease as exceeding
that designated distance. I think business have some kind of price limit per cargo unit it can
afford or capable to pay.
Example, for raw wood, paper mill could pay full price for raw wood coming within X distance.
Exceeding X distance it will pay less for the distance greater than X.
Player will need to think about bring-in cargo from closer distributor if there is one to lower the risk.
It could help controlling high revenue obtained from hauling very long distance using basic track/road.
Ah I kind of can guess it is too computational wise too costly especially for p****enger and mail.
Just an idea witch crossed my mind yesterday while playing.
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Simutrans Gaming Discussion / Mechanism idea on online mode and cooperative play
If delivering freight to city triggered increased p****enger and mail generation for that city?
Also, increased p****enger and mail departure percentage contributed to better effect of freight
on city's growth?
Effect seems hard to imagine at first but imagine a multiplayer map where there is one who prefer
serving freight and others for p****engers and mail.
Freight person could help other p****enger/mail preferred players cities to generate more p****enger
and mail for them. In return, freight person could enjoy more delivered good effects on the cities
it serves if p****/mail person arrives to serve his cities, or he could do him self with his stable income.
On detail side, no additional bonus is needed. This could work around by just capping
1. p****enger/mail generation rate for each city and cap lifted as freight arrival rate increase.
2. add actual effectiveness percentage on freight multiplayer depending on px/mail departure rate.
Simple example
1. If more than 50% freight arrive, p/m generation rate increase from default 50% to 100%
2. If more than 35% of p/m departs from the city, freight effect restored to 100% from initial 35%
Ideal will be number of rule and its values at the hands of pak designers.
Even in single player mode, we could observe some interesting effects such as sharp increase
in number of p/m to be dealt as new challenge/planning aspect.
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Pak64 / Re: General pak64 feedback here
has increase from 358 unit a month to 488unit a month. I guess it will be good for player
to be notified on this kind of event similar to opening of new industry chain.
Also, when does increase in consumption rate occurs? Can this happen in any consumer?