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Topic: Hardware accelerated display, OpenGL back-end & Simutrans 3D (Read 237820 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #420 –
Quote from: Hajo – on
Mac OS and Linux fans will cry if Simutrans 3D gets done with Visual Basic, I think.

I cry when anything is written in Visual Basic. ;)
--Skreyola
You can also help translate for your language with SimuTranslator.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #422 –
No, because this language is one of the least portable languages. That means, using Visual Basic will look lock out a lot of people from using Simutrans 3D (but the thread is so old, I doubt the project is still going. And I'd ****ume a serious try to use a language that is easier to link with C++, the language Simutrans is written in).

Edit: Typo fixed.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #423 –
Every time somebody writes code in Visual Basic, God kills a kitten.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #424 –
We could make a silly poll to determine which language/framework should be used for "new Simutrans" of any kind. Here are some serious contenders:

Erlang
Perl, Ruby, Python (take your pick)
****embly with AT&T syntax
Lua
Matlab
J2ME (mobile, whee!)
Cobol
autotools
jQuery
bash

...not all on this list are actually jokes :)

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #425 –
Quote from: VS – on
We could make a silly poll to determine which language/framework should be used for "new Simutrans" of any kind. Here are some serious contenders:

Erlang
Perl, Ruby, Python (take your pick)
****embly with AT&T syntax
Lua
Matlab
J2ME (mobile, whee!)
Cobol
autotools
jQuery
bash

...not all on this list are actually jokes :)

Lua! Woo Hoo!

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #426 –
Lua is cool actually. We could compile the C++ code of current Simutrans into a library and use that from Lua ;D

At least I have successfully intertwined C++ and Lua code in the past.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #427 –
Quote from: vilvoh – on
Every time somebody writes code in Visual Basic, God kills a kitten.

This is why I don't see too many kittens around me... These days at work I have a wide use of Visual Basic, ihihihih

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #428 –
You forgot Haskell!!

Simutrans is going functional :)

(You can actually use SDL with Haskell - and it even looks quite nice [at least on the first glance])

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #429 –
How about QBasic?
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

Follow Simutrans-Extended on Facebook.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #430 –
How about I SLAP YOU AROUND?

;-)

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #431 –
Only if you can write a "slap you around" programme in QBasic...
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

Follow Simutrans-Extended on Facebook.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #432 –
Code: [Select]
10 print "slap"
20 goto 10

 ;D

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #433 –
Or maybe:

Code: [Select]
10 print "Slap"
20 pause 10
30 goto 10

?
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

Follow Simutrans-Extended on Facebook.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #434 –
That would be the additional feature in slap-you-around-experimental ;)

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #435 –
lol

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #436 –
Quote from: Reddog785 – on
You...Cry. You actually...cry. Why? Is it because you can't understand it?
I used to write GWBasic programs, so I doubt I'd have trouble understanding it. As someone already suggested, it's not the most portable language in the world; hence the crying.
--Skreyola
You can also help translate for your language with SimuTranslator.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #437 –
I have a theory that the best eficiency in results would be to use a partially 3-D engine, where the ground, track, and building foundations are 3-D, while everything else is the existing sprites. This could probide opportunities for several gameplay changes that at least I would consider improvements, such as variable heights and diagonals on slopes, as wells as removing the incredible numbers of sprites that the grounds in the current version of simutrans are using, while not requireing all of the building and vehicle sprites to be replaced.

as for languages, any language will do as long as it will compile and run on either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC_Computer or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_(Discworld)

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #438 –
The problem is, that the routing of vehicles is tile based. Changing that (efficiently) is not easy.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #440 –
Prissi: My idea was to have a map that's tile based in 2-D, but with height not being fixed points. Existing buildings would be usable (with 3-D foundations) as they would be on flat squares as currently in simutrans. Trains would still work as the fact that the vehicles fail to line up on slopes would often be less visible than currently as the slopes would often be less steep. Track, trackobjects, stations, and bridges would need new graphics to follow the terrain (partly, as left to right would still be kept flat with some kind of foundation)

Issac: You need a cheese industry

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #441 –
Very very good idea :)

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #442 –
Quote from: mjhn – on
Prissi: My idea was to have a map that's tile based in 2-D, but with height not being fixed points. Existing buildings would be usable (with 3-D foundations) as they would be on flat squares as currently in simutrans. Trains would still work as the fact that the vehicles fail to line up on slopes would often be less visible than currently as the slopes would often be less steep. Track, trackobjects, stations, and bridges would need new graphics to follow the terrain (partly, as left to right would still be kept flat with some kind of foundation)
The current system has the advantage it is easy to see whether a tile is flat or if it is a slope. With variable slopes this becomes more difficult.

Yes you can reuse building graphics but all track has to become 3d (it's impractical to draw all the possible combinations). Likewise bridges and stations have to go 3d. Then it becomes tricky making graphics consistent between 2d and 3d parts of the game...

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #443 –
Quote from: mjhn – on
Prissi: My idea was to have a map that's tile based in 2-D, but with height not being fixed points. Existing buildings would be usable (with 3-D foundations) as they would be on flat squares as currently in simutrans. Trains would still work as the fact that the vehicles fail to line up on slopes would often be less visible than currently as the slopes would often be less steep.
I very much like this idea!

Quote from: kierongreen – on
Yes you can reuse building graphics but all track has to become 3d
Not necessarily. Slopes could be not entirely free, but, say, 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% (existing ones).
Tracks and roads could limited to 10% (roads and tracks), 20% and 30% (roads only).
Steeper slopes would need to be smoothed in order to host ways, whereas only roads would need more (and only 3) different slopes.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #444 –
Railroad Tycoon 2 uses something similar, I think... terrain is 3d-like, but some items like buildings and trees are 2d. It's also exceptionally ugly compared to Simutrans ;D And the whole world is simpler, there are not so many things interacting with terrain.

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #445 –
Quote from: kierongreen – on
Yes you can reuse building graphics but all track has to become 3d (it's impractical to draw all the possible combinations). Likewise bridges and stations have to go 3d. Then it becomes tricky making graphics consistent between 2d and 3d parts of the game...

Why do stations need to become 3D models? I think 2D sprites like now would still work in a 3D landscape, given that the landscape isn't freely rotatable  and the stations are only build on flat ground.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #446 –
Quote from: Hajo – on
Why do stations need to become 3D models? I think 2D sprites like now would still work in a 3D landscape, given that the landscape isn't freely rotatable  and the stations are only build on flat ground.

Because once you have variable slopes it actually starts to become tricky to get perfectly level ground. You can try and code workarounds for this but it would get tricky (only practical way is to automatically level terrain when building stations, adjusting height of surrounding tiles when required, but this introduces problems too). Similarly for bridges it becomes less obvious whether there is enough height difference between two ways crossing.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #447 –
Settlers II and III flattened the area for a building. I'd  ****ume that it's possible in Simutrans 3D, too. But you are right, this requires extra thought and maybe some tricks.

Another idea for moderately level ground would be 3D foundations to have level ground for the station, while the track is slightly sloped. This may or may not work, most likely one would have to make a few mockup screens to judge the visual appearance.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #448 –
before this gets to far along could anybody give an example of a commercial game that was isometric and then moved to 3d and get better? I personaly cant think of any!

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #449 –
Quote from: itec – on
before this gets to far along could anybody give an example of a commercial game that was isometric and then moved to 3d and get better? I personaly cant think of any!

I don't know any either. And given the fact that we talk since years about Simutrans 3D but neither have any code nor models, I'd not fear this gets too far along before ... I don't know. Currently the situation is that he official dev team does nothing in this direction, and volunteers all have stopped their work, if they even started.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #450 –
GTA 3, Fallout, Warcraft 3, Command & Conquer, Starcraft 2, MMORPGs like Ultima Online, Football games like FIFA or PES...Perhaps they didn't improve the gameplay, but at least they look different... ;)

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #452 –
The only instance I can think of a business game where making it 3d improved the game was Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 - but that was still grid-based (improvements in gameplay were mainly based around more flexibility in track shapes and more different slopes - all the rest was eyecandy).

You must notice, through, that recent discussion have not centred on making Simutrans 3-D, but using 3-D technology to improve the isometric graphics system (more flexibility in slopes, for example)

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #453 –
going full 3D would make content creation less effort in the long run. as i understood it is quite a lot of work to create the images, with all rotations, from the 3D models, since a lot of postproduction is required. i guess this is also likely the reason why almost all the commercial game developers created only 3D games from the late 90s on.

3D should also provide higher performance and higher detail if LODs are chosen well.

the huge workload will be on the code side.

Re: Simutrans in 3D

Reply #454 –
Quote from: sdog – on
going full 3D would make content creation less effort in the long run. as i understood it is quite a lot of work to create the images, with all rotations, from the 3D models, since a lot of postproduction is required. i guess this is also likely the reason why almost all the commercial game developers created only 3D games from the late 90s on.

It depends. To me it seems that full 3D usually means more work for the artists. Also it locks out all people who paint, instead of modeling items.

If there is no option to use painted sprites and tiles, I can immediately dump my plans and ideas for things like pak.Excentrique. Nothing there is made with a 3D program that would be compatible with the polygon-based way to display images that nowadays graphics cards and all 3D games use (well except the few voxel and raytracing based ones).

The reason for 3D in commercial games was not saved work for the developers, but marketing, in my opinion.