idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Topic: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building) (Read 30922 times) previous topic - next topic

idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

May 16, 2010, 07:43:22 am

It occurred to me that perhaps one could make and render a rail yard as a multi-tile building.
We all know that for train track tiles, there's only 1 set of tracks per tile, but what if it's made into a building prop?

Visually, I'm quite sure you can fit 2 sets of tracks in one tile and 5 sets of tracks in 2 tiles.

Maybe something like a 4x10 tile building with one or two points where it would visually merge with way tracks, hiding the buffer. One could even insert a turn table and engine house with realistic visuals.

I hope this image illustrates what I'm saying better.

Now I don't think this is within my capabilities of creating, but I wanted to throw the idea out.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #1 – May 16, 2010, 04:12:09 pm

I know what you mean, but without a real purpose in the game I'm not quite sure it's worth doing.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #2 – May 16, 2010, 05:01:54 pm

Quote from: sdog – on May 15, 2010, 04:36:47 pm

off topic, a turntable would be a good station extension for experimental, speeding up turning of locomotives at terminals.

Quote from: jamespetts – on May 16, 2010, 02:55:54 pm

A turntable would require quite a radical systematic change to the way in which railway vehicles work: currently, shunting is not simulated at all.

This would probably require a flag for bidirectional trainsets (with driving cabs at both ends) versus single-ended or locomotive-hauled trains. Bidirectional trains would have a short turnaround time, versus a long delay when turning other trains. One could reduce this delay by scheduling a visit to the turntable / railyard. Such implementation seems like an awful lot of work to add something fairly irritating to the game.

Alternately, if a turntable were an add-on building to a station, then trains reversing at stations having one would get the reduced turn-around time, even without the visual effect of running off somewhere.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #3 – May 16, 2010, 11:45:48 pm

Quote from: wlindley – on May 16, 2010, 05:01:54 pm

This would probably require a flag for bidirectional trainsets (with driving cabs at both ends) versus single-ended or locomotive-hauled trains. Bidirectional trains would have a short turnaround time, versus a long delay when turning other trains. One could reduce this delay by scheduling a visit to the turntable / railyard. Such implementation seems like an awful lot of work to add something fairly irritating to the game.

Experimental already has the flag that you describe: there are different reversing times for trains that can be driven at each end versus trains with a locomotive that needs to change ends versus a locomotive that needs to change ends *and* be turned on a turntable. What is not practical to simulate is the actual shunting in detail (e.g., disconnecting the locomotive from the train, running it to a turntable, turning it, then reconnecting it to the train). Such shunting operations would add unimaginable complexity to the code.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #4 – May 17, 2010, 09:22:14 am

The "rail yard", as say a marshalling yard, is often seen in-game now, just as a freight station with parallel sidings, where goods are transshipped. I don't see a building with this role being useful.

I do however think something representative of a rail depot, for the storage of locomotives, carriage works, etc, would add realism, since these are not small pieces of infrastructure. Indeed, they often are economic forces in their own right.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #5 – May 17, 2010, 09:28:25 am

The current implementation of simutrans doesn't really have any place for locomotive works or maintenance yards except for the "depot". I think I've suggested before a couple of alterations which could make this more realistic for experimental:

1) making depots like stations, i.e. multiple tiles. Depots can only build convoys up to the maximum length of the depot.
2) each depot has a maintenance capacity (either vehicles or convoys). Although the game wouldn't require trains to ever visit the depot (that is a bit micro-managementy), it would mean you could only have as many vehicles/convoys as you had maintenance capacity to keep running.

That would lead to the need for building larger railway yards. By extension, these could also act as employment trip-ends in the same way as factories do.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #6 – May 17, 2010, 01:03:54 pm

Hood - I like #2. The current vehicle maintenance cost number could become the base cost, and then:

[ul]

if there were sufficient maintenance capacity for a player's fleet, the actual vehicle maintenance cost would be something like half the rated value (seeing as the player is paying to maintain the depots)
with insufficient maintenance capacity, the base cost for each vehicle would be multiplied by a factor related to the disparity between needed and actual maintenance capacity[/ul]

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #7 – May 17, 2010, 01:30:54 pm

These are very interesting ideas, but please be aware that I don't have the time to implement major new features in Experimental for quite a while yet. It'd be good to do something like this one day, but the priority at present is getting Experimental balanced as it is and then making Pak128.Britain (and the Experimental version) as complete as possible.

If someone else were to code this, of course, that woul be another matter entirely. And it's quite possible that I'll have time for this one day: but working to complete Pak128.Britain is a higher priority at present, and I haevn't had as much time to do that as I'd like because of coding work necessary to fix bugs and balancing issues in Simutrans-Experimental.

I'm not discouraging, incidentally, people suggesting new ideas for Experimental, but noting that it might be quite a while before I have time to code any of them, even if they are good...

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #8 – May 17, 2010, 04:45:05 pm

I think of it more of a diorama prop for those who might want some more realism in their game.
of course, since it doesn't really serve any purpose other than a visual enhancement it's not really necessary.
I think I might have meant marshaling yard, like AP said. Where it's more of a storage space for unused rolling stock, or cars waiting to be ****embled. But of course, only visually. It's quite normal to see rolling stock that are just sitting on a side line, doing nothing.

I just wanted to put out some ideas before I forget them

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #9 – May 17, 2010, 04:48:18 pm

I could make one of these for maglevs.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #10 – May 17, 2010, 07:53:01 pm

Quote

Experimental already has the flag that you describe: there are different reversing times for trains that can be driven at each end versus trains with a locomotive that needs to change ends versus a locomotive that needs to change ends *and* be turned on a turntable. What is not practical to simulate is the actual shunting in detail

when i suggested the turntable i meant something much simpler than actual, visual, shunting.

in the current system locomotives with tender have a much higer turn around time in experimental than diesel or tank engines. Afaik atm this is flaged in the dat file, the actual time is set in the code?
The idea was to have a station extension building that gives a station a flag to use the turnaround time of tank engines if set. Coding should be reduced to more complex conditionals.

I don't know however how difficult it would be to introduce new flags to stations, and read them in other parts of the code. Such code could possibly used to give stations other flags too, the first that springs to mind is an upgraded stop with fare collection and bared entrances, reducing the load time for p****engers (they don't have to pay with the conductor when entering).

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #11 – May 17, 2010, 09:30:03 pm

Sdog,

an interesting idea: the ****umption underlying the existing model, however, is that tender engines take longer to reverse even with a turntable (after all, it takes much longer to turn a locomotive on a turntable than simply run it around the train), and that the presence of a turntable where needed is simply an ****umed operational detail not specifically simulated in the same way as refuelling points and signal boxes.

(Incidentally, the various timings are set in simuconf.tab at present).

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #12 – May 17, 2010, 10:36:48 pm

I like the idea of depots that have to be as long as the trains they produce.
I also like the idea of their becoming employment destinations (requiring a platform station nearby).

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #13 – May 30, 2010, 04:42:57 pm

Quote from: skreyola – on May 17, 2010, 10:36:48 pm

I like the idea of depots that have to be as long as the trains they produce.

Emminently sensible, in fact I wonder why it isn't like that already!

Quote

I also like the idea of their becoming employment destinations (requiring a platform station nearby).

Absolutely, or how does the engine driver get to work?! Even further, it wouldn't be out of the question {though might be annoying} to have it require p****engers in order to be allowed to produce trains!

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #14 – May 30, 2010, 05:51:58 pm

Quote from: AP – on May 30, 2010, 04:42:57 pm

Emminently sensible, in fact I wonder why it isn't like that already!

Absolutely, or how does the engine driver get to work?! Even further, it wouldn't be out of the question {though might be annoying} to have it require p****engers in order to be allowed to produce trains!

And how would the p****engers get there - by train? Or by 'bus - or would the 'bus depot also require p****engers... and so on ad infinitum...?

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #15 – May 30, 2010, 07:01:47 pm

You would have to place depots into city to get some accidental p****engers from its coverage

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #16 – May 31, 2010, 02:16:49 am

Quote from: AP – on May 30, 2010, 04:42:57 pm

Emminently sensible, in fact I wonder why it isn't like that already!

Coding complexity not warranted for the function (in the early stages of game development).
Also, since these squares represent 1km, not too unreasonable that a utility building should take up only one square for memetic simplicity as well as coding simplicity.

Quote

Absolutely, or how does the engine driver get to work?! Even further, it wouldn't be out of the question {though might be annoying} to have it require p****engers in order to be allowed to produce trains!

Um... No. I just think the people who work there might want public transit to get there...

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #17 – May 31, 2010, 02:29:25 am

Either the depot has a very tiny number of p****engers ****igned which makes it unprofitable to connect to the network or it has a large number. This would be an inivitation for exploits.

Just build a number of relatively cheap depots next to a stop outside of town and magically generate lots of p****enger trips there.

My oppinion is in total those suggestions just create a lot of work to implement to get more micromanagement into the game.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #18 – May 31, 2010, 08:40:22 am

I never did understand the "1 tile is 1km" argument in relation to the size of depots, as the treatment of depots is not consistent with that of stations: if it's a good enough reason to have depots just one tile no matter how long the train, why is it not a sufficient reason to do the same with stations?

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #19 – May 31, 2010, 06:43:49 pm

Quote from: jamespetts – on May 31, 2010, 08:40:22 am

I never did understand the "1 tile is 1km" argument in relation to the size of depots, as the treatment of depots is not consistent with that of stations: if it's a good enough reason to have depots just one tile no matter how long the train, why is it not a sufficient reason to do the same with stations?

Because depots are less interesting than stations, at least early in game development.
But your point is an argument in support of making depots larger buildings.

@sdog: The p****enger draw should be small, and would likely lead to placing depots near cities so city stations could cover their needs.

Of course, player doesn't HAVE to supply depots with service... just an extra option, or a challenge for those who want 100% coverage.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #20 – May 31, 2010, 07:13:29 pm

Quote from: skreyola – on May 31, 2010, 06:43:49 pm

Because depots are less interesting than stations, at least early in game development.

Hmm, I'm not sure that I fully understand that point. Why are depots less interesting than stations in early game development?

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #21 – May 31, 2010, 11:11:01 pm

Quote from: jamespetts – on May 31, 2010, 07:13:29 pm

Hmm, I'm not sure that I fully understand that point. Why are depots less interesting than stations in early game development?

Because they only do one thing in ST (build trains/trucks; don't maintain vehicles like in TTD), they are less interesting to players and therefore don't warrant as much coding attention as stations, especially in early versions (under 0.8 or 0.99) of the game, because making things run right is more important than adding new features.
After 1.00, such a building might get a second look, might get additional abilities, might get siding queues, and so might warrant being recoded as multi-tile buildings like stations are.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #22 – June 10, 2010, 01:20:43 pm

Quote from: skreyola – on May 17, 2010, 10:36:48 pm

I like the idea of depots that have to be as long as the trains they produce.
I also like the idea of their becoming employment destinations (requiring a platform station nearby).

1. Sounds very interesting - trains' length limited by depot size - but I am worried about it is only for experimental. I found multiple-tiled rail depots on japanese.simutrans.com (but still not tested it) - so I know it is possible.

2. Stations as destinations for people - very interesting not only for experimental.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #23 – June 11, 2010, 01:14:17 am

Depots as long as the trains fits for modern high speed trains and likely for all *MU. But historical train depots weren't that long, were they? I thought only the engines were repaired and stored in the depots. The train ****embled outside.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #24 – June 11, 2010, 03:54:17 am

In which case, the yard would be needed as a multi-tile building.

I don't think long depots should be limited to Exp. I think they'd make a nice addition to standard.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #25 – June 11, 2010, 05:55:47 am

This would cause building central depots - so no more one or more depots per city - but one depot would serve for much more cities - like in real world.

Sdog: some trains are ****embled outside of depots - but you have to count also with *MU trains which cannot be dis****embled else (for example some modern high speed trains).

Most depots are built from two parts - repairing hall (own depot) and something like this (I am sorry for only link but picture is too large for showing here): out-of-service station (here you can see mostly EMU cl**** 451 - almost present in main pak128 or you can download newer version from Czech language board).

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #26 – June 11, 2010, 07:47:01 am

Quote from: skreyola – on June 11, 2010, 03:54:17 am

In which case, the yard would be needed as a multi-tile building.
I don't think long depots should be limited to Exp. I think they'd make a nice addition to standard.

Think of the depot as not only the construction works, but also the stabling area/carriage sidings where the train was put together... MUs use up less space because they don't need carriages shunting around all the time, rather than more.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #27 – June 11, 2010, 10:30:45 pm

How about a multi tile building from the start? The paksets could decide for something relatviely large, 4x4 or 3x6. The artists could draw the engine sheds, repair sheds, switch yards, out-of-service-sheds.

Firstly this saves new players the confusion of having to piece the yard together, like stations. Secondly it provides more graphical diversity for paksets.

Especially with experimentals train restriction on certain depots for high speed trains something like this:

for old steamers something like this:

would make it immediately clear what it is for.

I don't think it is sensible to make the depots too expensive. While it's not very bothersome to experienced players to have only one or two for the whole map, it is quite difficult for inexperienced players. Moving a train through an extended network to get to it's actuall route can be tricky (just one word, platform choose signals)

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #28 – June 12, 2010, 01:54:51 am

Getting a train through an actual network (rather than just a series of routes connected by the shortest distance between them) shouldn't be too difficult, as stations won't be on the main lines, in most cases, anyway.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #29 – June 12, 2010, 03:34:27 am

other things that you might see at the railyard are departmental use railway maintenance vehicles and crane cars, which would otherwise serve no purpose in game.

the flying banana for instance.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #30 – June 12, 2010, 08:25:22 am

If multiple tile depots were implemented, I would argue for them being built like stations i.e. 1 tile at a time. This allows for more creative and flexible layouts.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #31 – June 12, 2010, 09:38:25 am

Quote from: The Hood – on June 12, 2010, 08:25:22 am

I would argue for them being built like stations i.e. 1 tile at a time.

Yes. This would be needed - but then better price politics has to be set because current price for depot used for one tile would make depot too expensive. I can image that price for one tile of depot would be about seven hudred and fifty or within one thousand - to one track depot would have the same (or similar) expensiveness as current one.

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #32 – June 15, 2010, 01:16:15 am

Quote from: The Hood – on June 12, 2010, 08:25:22 am

If multiple tile depots were implemented, I would argue for them being built like stations i.e. 1 tile at a time. This allows for more creative and flexible layouts.

:agree: and :support:

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #33 – June 15, 2010, 08:25:40 pm

Returning to one of the economic suggestions discussed earlier about depots requiring workers and encouraging the growth of towns in which they are sited, a very simple way to deal with this would be to require that all depots are built within city limits, then to add the depot to the list of city buildings, and use the "level" (which is already encoded into the depot, by virtue of being a building) to determine just how many (1) mail and p****engers are generated; and (2) additional jobs are provided to the city in which it is located. Care would have to be taken by pakset maintainers to ensure that the upkeep cost of a depot always exceeds the revenue that can be generated by transporting mail and p****engers to it!

Re: idea: rail yard (multi-tile freight building)

Reply #34 – June 21, 2010, 04:13:05 am

how does one know where the city limits are?
afaik, you can set the minimap to show the boundaries, but I haven't really seen anything for displaying the bounds on the main view.